deconversion

I know I've been MIA for a while now, but I had a confrontation today that has sent me running back to my dear ex-Christian friends.

On facebook, one of my friends send me an invite to hear Richard Dawkins speak on his upcoming book tour. I thought that I could RSVP and delete the notice from my wall really quickly, making so that no one else knew about it. I was wrong, and one of my little sisters saw, prompting and immediate hysterical call from my mother. First, she asked me if I was an atheist. I tried giving her the "I'm just informing myself about divergent opinions" line, but she wasn't buying it. On this site many times we have talked about how it is likely best to break de-Conversion to friends and family in small steps, so they can have time to process it all. For at least a year I had been looking for an opportunity to take that first step, so I decided to tell her that I accepted evolution, which only made her more hysterical. She asked me if I believed that the flood happened, I had to say "no." She asked me if I believed that man was created in God's image, and I told her that evolution doesn't have anything to say about the origin of life, just what happened after. She then started complaining about how she spend thousands of dollars on my Christian elementary and high school education, apparently all for nothing. That made me angry, and I said I was sorry for not coming out sufficiently indoctrinated, but that I have a thinking mind and can make decisions for myself.

Of course she asked me, "What about all of the scientists who accept creation? Did you see Ben Stein's Expelled?" What could I say? I told her, which is true, that I've spend several years examining the arguments of both sides, and one always comes out on top, the side of science.

She was so upset. To be honest, I didn't think telling her that I accepted evolution would be such a big deal, but she belongs to the evangelical brand of Christianity where evolution is a gateway to atheism. Despite the fact that evolution did contribute to my atheism, I decided this wasn't the time to reveal it all, so I insisted that I was still a Christian, that I still believe in Jesus.

She said it would "kill" her if I ever became an atheist.

We talked on the phone for about an hour, mostly with her crying and yelling on the other end of the phone, and me trying to gently reassure her that I'm the same person, that nothing has changed about my, I just have a different understanding of science than she does.

Aside from how emotionally draining the entire encounter was, what's really terrible is that I can't tell if I've made a giant step forward or a giant step backward. She told me that she could tell I was keeping a side of me from her, and that she had suspicions that I was an atheist. Should I have just admited it? Would it have been better to get it all out at once? Now I'm afraid she's going to be scrutinizing my life for true signs that I am still a Christian. I'm afraid that she's going to try to talk about religion much more in front of me, try to engage me. We had reached a silent agreement that I didn't like to talk about religion, and I'm afraid that that comfortable silence has now been breeched. I'm afraid she's going to draw it all out of me, slowly and painfully.

I keep telling myself that this is all for the better, but I really wish it would have never happened. I'm kicking myself for being so dumb on facebook. I'm kicking myself for not just lying outright to her and telling her, "Oh, I clicked the wrong button. I meant to click 'Not attending.'" I thought I'd feel better once I'd let her know about this aspect of my life, but I only feel worse. I feel terrible.

Wow. I hope that you will manage to work this out, but I'm guessing it will take a lot of time. I like the approach that you took, reassuring your mom that you are still the same person you always were. I hope with time that she'll see that.

I've not been in this same situation, so I don't have any advice from experience to offer. But I can offer a virtual shoulder, and a promise to listen when you need to vent.

Thanks, Ubi. I guess it will be interesting, from an objective point, to see what ends up happening. I just wish I wasn't happening to me!

One very interesting thing happened to me during the conversation. I was talking a bit about all of research I did into evolution vs. creation, and afterward I made sure to tell her that I recognize that we have different views, but that I still respect her's, and I want her to feel free to talk about it around me, etc. She told me that she's afraid now that I think she's stupid and her views are stupid. It makes me wonder if she knows on some level that what she believes is ridiculous. Anyway, I assured her that I think she's a very intelligent person and that I understand that she feels deep inside her that her creationist view is true, and that it comes from a very honest place. Right after that she asked me never to talk to my yonger siblings about evolution. It seems like she knows on some level that it's true, but really really doesn't want to accept it.

Oh my gosh, that must have felt like an ambush! I have a feeling I would have responded the way you did...reveal a little but try and "save face" for now. Who wants everything to come out so suddenly with no peaceful planning time?

I have been having discussions with my mom who is a little less panicky, so I have got her to the point where she knows that I am at a "much different place" in faith and that I'm not going to church. But when I do finally reveal that I don't believe in God, I know that the anger is going to really come out. I am afraid it will be like the day when I said I wanted to have a small wedding, and she had been planning on a large wedding all of my life. I never saw a southern belle SO angry. She basically threatened to disown me. Needless to say, I had a large wedding. LOL

I guess the question is, what do you do now? With the dynamic that you describe, it seems that you may be bound for another unplanned confrontation in the future. If you can squeeze a little more time out first for your mom to see that you are indeed the same person, and that you do truly respect her and her views, then you might want to plan a reveal in the near future. Otherwise you may have an unplanned reveal! This is a tough spot...I hope things work out okay.

It did feel like an ambush. I mean, it was my fault for being careless on facebook, but still...To get a call asking "ARE YOU AN ATHEIST?!" hysterically is not nice. And then this afternoon my heart almost stopped when my phone rang and I saw it was my maternal granparents calling, who are extremely religious (most of their lives they worked for Campus Crusade). I specifically asked my mom not to tell them. Maybe she didn't and they were just calling coincidentally. They do call me every few months to catch up. Or worse, maybe more of my family members saw and freaked out about the Dawkins thing, and word already got around to them. The talk is happening in church. Maybe I can use that bit of info to lie a bit more.

I can't believe I did this. I'm usually so careful when it comes to the internet. I really thought I could hide it.

I'm probably over reacting, but I'm already thinking about not going back to my home town for Christmas this year (thankfully I live in a different state). I wonder when my mom will decide to talk to me again...and how she'll act. Who would have ever thought that this would be such a big deal?

There are definitely going to be more confrontations in my future. I don't know how long I can hold it all together. I find lying to my mom really difficult. I'm afraid if she confronts me again I'll have to be honest. I wish she just wouldn't push...but I know she will. .

Well. That was unpleasantly abrupt wasn't it? I don't know much about your relationship with your mom, nor what you want/expect of it in the future.

I'm new here, so I haven't read many of your posts, but this one just grabbed me because I really feel for you. My husband's parents would be so upset if they found out that we're no longer Christians. And it if it happened with no warning for me, I would have a hard time. We have been avoiding letting them know at all costs. You wrote that you feel terrible, and I would too. It is possible that feeling will change with time though. Everything changes, right?

I don't think you're overreacting - it does sound like your beliefs are a big deal to your family. If I were you, I would be thinking about what I could say in the future that would be honest but also comforting to them, if that's possible. I have already come up with some things to say in case of emergency...do you believe God is big enough to take care of me and handle my doubts? Don't you know me well enough to know that I have tried to have faith and that I really do have love in my heart? These questions are not going to make everything better, but I hope they will "put the ball back in their court" so to speak - make them realize that they need to take control of their reaction and trust their God with things. I am also reading everything I can find here from people who have been through this before.  When family and friends find out, it will not be easy. I don't see how there is an easy way.

Your approach in the first conversation - reassurance - sounded really good. When my mom tried to push me to talk to her about God the other night, I basically kept redirecting the conversation to her faith and encouraging her with some struggles she's having. It's important to her that she can talk to me and that I respect her faith. I think she ended up having a fulfilling conversation with me about faith - without even discussing my beliefs.  But she was curious, and I know she will continue to ask. I also know that it's in her best interest for me to be vague, so I'm holding onto that as long as I can.  "I need space to deal with all of this. I am just not sure about things and hope you can respect that. I'm sorry I can't meet your expectations right now. I'm sorry I don't have the answers you want me to have right now. I'm sorry you're disappointed, but I'm doing my best." One the one hand it feels like lying. On the other it feels like being merciful to her. But I figure if I can get her to accept that I am unsure now, then it might be easier for to accept when I am sure that I am not a Christian later...a staged process.

But with my husband's family...I don't think they will ever know how to accept it. So if it comes out, everything will hit the fan. Unpleasantness will abound. I just hope that their faith will lead them to be kind and loving toward us. It worries me that they will no longer respect us or anything we have to say. That worries me most. But that is totally beyond my control.

Hang in there. This seems like a great community that cares, so I hope it will be helpful for you.

orDover, I am absolutely oozing with empathy right now. For me, I wasn't worried so much about my own family as I was my wife's family. Her dad is an Evangelical preacher. I wasn't nearly as careful as you were on Facebook, I'm afraid. I think because I knew I would eventually come out as an atheist, there were some things I wanted to blog about, ironic musings and whatnot, about the Bible, about the way we interpret it... from the point of view of a Christian, because honestly these were things that I thought about and mused about while I was still "in the fold." For instance, "How must the conversation have gone between the two disciples and the guy whose donkey they were trying to take."

Well my father-in-law latched onto things like that and fah-REAKED out. Of course it didn't help that atheist friends from college would get into it with him too. More than once in the middle of a long FB argument, he would say, "I'm really curious where Brian stands on all these things." I would always cop out and be like, "Guys, seriously, this wasn't meant as a criticism of anyone's faith." And it really wasn't. Again, these were things that I had thought about AS A CHRISTIAN. Thoughts which had no bearing on faith at all.

But I could see the writing on the wall. Ultimately I HAD to come out because the double-life and double-talk was starting to affect my marriage. After all, my wife was, is, still a Christian and these were her parents that I was lying to.

I ended up taking, perhaps, the cowards way out and told the family via mini-mass-emails with the link to my deconversion story. It was unfomfortable at first, but I think the thing that really kind of eased the tension between us is when I told them to, "Please pray for me if you think it will help. I remain ever open to a genuine Damascus Road experience." Because truthfully I do. If God can show up personally like he did with Paul, then shit, I'd be the fool to ignore it. So they can feel good because they're praying, being proactive in my salvation, without the constant uncomfortable conversations. I'm actually thankful that they have enough faith in their God that they "know" they don't NEED to try logic'ing me back into the Kingdom. They "know" that God has already answered their prayers. I think if only more Christians had that kind of genuine "calm faith" the world would be better.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I'd say the bandaid approach is best, but based on your de-conversion story, I know you're probably in for a much more in-your-face confrontation if you ever came out to your family. So I have no advice to give. Be sure to update us as the drama unfolds, because we're all interpersonal atheist voyeurs here. :-)

Leo, you're right about my great (atheist) husband. I spend the majority of yesterday literally clinging to him. It's really great to know that no matter what happens with my parents, I'll always have him, and in addition I will have his family who are religious but don't care at all about our atheism.

One thing that is going to be difficult, kind of going off of Mary's & Fearless's posts, is that I don't think my mom will accept any sort of question dodging. Yesterday she didn't even give me a chance. She was trying to gauge where I stood, and asked me a bunch of point-black yes or no questions: "Do you believe in the flood?" "Do you believe man was created in God's image?" "Is having a personal relationship with God still important to you?" "Do you still believe in the literal interpretation of the New Testament?" "Do you still love Jesus?"

My only real hope is that she knows deep down I was lying, and won't press the question for fear of hearing the truth. But in all honest, she's not that kind of a person. She's too pushy to let things be.

I'm really afraid what will happen when we talk again. I don't know if she'll try to dig deeper or rehash it all, or if she'll just act like nothing happened. Either way, I turned off my phone and I'm not checking my email. I just want to completely cut myself off at this point.

Man, sounds a lot like my coming out. The one thing I really regret about it was that it wasn't done on my terms, but rather with my mom asking pointed questions and me deciding to come clean. I'm sorry you didn't get the opportunity to do this on your terms, either; it sucks having to be on the defensive with this.

I wish I could offer you some advice, having been in a nearly identical situation, but I'm not sure there's really a good way to handle this. I can say that, for me at least, I feel far better now that everything's out in the open, even if there's still occasional tension. It's really nice not having to pretend to be something I'm not around my family, even if they don't approve of it. Coming out was incredibly difficult and stressful, but it was well worth it.

At this point, with your mom already suspecting the truth, is there really a good reason to keep it all hidden?

I note with considerable interest how so many of us are or were "in the closet" about de-conversion. It says something about the Christian faith that we all know there is much to fear in being honest.

At this point, with your mom already suspecting the truth, is there really a good reason to keep it all hidden?

I'm just really afraid of how she would react, especially now that she's revealed to me how hysterically she's going to deal with such news. She already said it would kill her if I became an atheist. She's also always really stressed what a huge and influential role I play in the lives of my younger siblings (all 6 of them). She pretty much forbade me to talk to them about evolution. I'm really afraid that if I was an atheist, she wouldn't let me be a part of their lives anymore.

I also just feel really bad about it, guilty even, like it's somehow my fault. I keep thinking about all of my cousins, how they are all strong Christians. That's all my mom ever wanted from me. That's all she ever tried to teach me. To her, nothing else matters. I don't want her to feel like a failure. I wish for her sake I could have turned out like them...just simply following the teachings of my parents.

I don't know what it is inside me that is so different. I don't know what ever inspired me to doubt God or the Bible. I feel like in some strange way I'm a malfunctioning person. There is nothing about me that is extrordinary. I was raised just like all the rest of them. Same town. Same schools. Same family. And yet, here I am, so completely different.

Of course my mom, while sobbing, told me that all she wants is for me to accept God's love and be with her in heaven. How can I tell her that if there is indeed a heaven, I won't be there?

Before this evolution thing, I wasn't sure how she would react to such news. Now that I know that she's going to take it in the absolute worst way possible it makes me want to be silent forever.

I note with considerable interest how so many of us are or were "in the closet" about de-conversion. It says something about the Christian faith that we all know there is much to fear in being honest.

There's a lot of psychology in this. Fear, pride, hurt, offense, insecurity, and more all figure in here.

I think a lot of this has to do with how dramatic Christianity is as a religion. You're either saved and will spend all of eternity is paradise, or your damned and will spend it in torment in hell. Imagine if instead of this dichotomy, the Christian afterlife was something less black and white, like maybe reincarnation. So someone who rejects the faith, instead of being damned forever, is simply demoted in the next lifetime to a lesser being.

This drama also plays out in their unrelenting Us vs. Them complex. My mother when on and on about how Dawkins "hates Jesus" and "does everything he can to disprove God." Despite the facts that I brought up about the large majority of his work being devoted not to disproving Jesus, but to the scholarly persuit of science and the defense of science (evolution) against those attacking it, she insisted his main goal is to rid the world of God. So dramatic!

Yes, Leo this topic is definitely interesting. The first thing I noticed when I joined here was that most of us are not using our real names or photos on the site. That made me think that maybe I'm not the only one who has "coming out" issues.

These are just a few of the questions I'm pondering....

Is it okay with me to lie so that someone else is not hurt? When I say hurt, it is not a one-time hurt. I think many of us want to shield our loved-ones from years of worry about our souls.

Is it okay with me to lie so that people will continue to respect me? What a bizarre question, but so true. I am pretty sure that some relatives I love very much will not care what I think or say once they know I am not a Christian.

Is there a completely different way of seeing this, where I am able to not only say what I think but not be ashamed of it and not worry about the fallout? This is hard for me to imagine, given that all of my family is in the south, and I have always been a peacemaker and HATE conflict. I don't think there is a way for me to do this because so many in my family take these things so seriously. They will want endless debates and discussions. They will evangelize and keep doing so. And I will find that so intolerable. Unlike many people here, I don't feel the need to defend my position or study all of the flaws of Christianity. I just want to be free to walk away from it without trying to defend myself or deconvert anyone else.

The thing is? I feel a need to be honest, but even more than that, to speak and act authentically. As long as I am worried about people's feelings and the consequences of authenticity, I am stuck in the closet. If I come out of the closet, I will be able to speak authentically, but no one will listen because they know the truth about me. UGH I hate this.

I would love to read any light that others can shed on this dilemma.

As far as what this dilemma says about Christianity, it's pretty simple. Christians are taught that non-Christians are doing and saying sinful things, that they are not to be trusted, that they need help, that they are "in the dark," and that it's the Christian's job to do something about it. It's not enough for them to allow God to handle our issues - God wants them to be his hands and feet. We all know this...why would we want to go from being accepted as a brother or sister to being viewed like this?

"Why do I care what they think?" is probably the best question. And in the case of friends - I don't. If my friends ditch me because of my beliefs, that is FINE by me. That just means they weren't really my friends. But with family - I like the idea of being civil with the people I came from and grew up with. But you know, I have a friend who was a Jehova's witness, and he had to give up his family completely when he left the church. In a way that would be easier than dealing with my familiy's views toward non-Christians for the rest of my life. *sigh*

Dover, we were writing at the same time. I didn't mean to hijack your message thread - Leo got me thinking about articles and I wanted to throw out some ideas.

I'm so sorry about how things are looking with your mom. I hope that at some point you two can find some common ground...maybe that will come after a lot of drama. But I am sure that you want for your mother to have a long and happy life, to be free from pain, to be loved, to be ethical, to have friends, etc. And if you could ever talk to her about those things, even knowing that you are not a believer, I bet she would wish those same things for you. If she has to give up her dream that you will accept God's love and be in heaven, perhaps she can come to a new one where you will be a decent person with a happy life who respects her faith and loves her. There are much worse things than having that kind of child. Her child could be spiteful, vindictive, seriously injured or traumatized, etc. Hopefully in time she will come to see this.

I hear you when you say you don't understand what is different about you. I don't understand in my case either. I believed in God so much, loved him so much. I led people to Christ on the playground, in college, etc. I cried out to him when I was depressed, believed in him and didn't question why I got cancer. Why did my faith just seem to give out? Why does it not make sense to me anymore when so many people think it makes sense and find it comforting?

All I know is - if things don't add up in your brain, you can't just pretend that they do. We are thinking creatures. So many things don't add up for me now that I cannot go back. Anyone who asked me to do that would be asking me to mentally suffer in order to make themselves feel better. I'm sure our parents don't want that for us.

Christians are taught that non-Christians are doing and saying sinful things, that they are not to be trusted, that they need help, that they are "in the dark," and that it's the Christian's job to do something about it. It's not enough for them to allow God to handle our issues - God wants them to be his hands and feet. We all know this...why would we want to go from being accepted as a brother or sister to being viewed like this?

It's even a bit worse. We are apostates. We're not just people who happen not to be in the faith. We are people who were in, knew it well, and rejected it. The Bible, church history, and most church teaching all reflect this as the worst sin possible.

Encouraging, yeah, I know.

Apostates weren't talked about much in the churches I attended, probably because most had some sort of calvinist theology (UGH). So aspostates aren't any worse to them than non-believers, because they supposedly never really were believers in the first place, right?

Or wait...have I blasphemed the Holy Spirit because I did know him and walked away? I suppose I have? That makes me the worst in everyone's book huh? Or maybe I haven't - it's not like I'm calling Him Satan. I don't believe in Satan.

LOL Geez thanks for the boost, Leo. Now I think I'm a REAL dirtbag.

I wonder if those who are likely to face nigh hysterical reactions to coming out might take a preemptive approach; a sort of reverse psychology. Something like:

The younger siblings do make it tough. My mom was always talking about how influential I am to my siblings, too. My sister has asked me not to talk to our little brother about my views, to which I responded that while I don't actively seek to de-convert him, I'm going to answer his questions honestly. I've also heard from him that my parents have stated they don't want him to "end up like [me]." He has been asking me questions, and I'm pretty sure that if he de-converts I will get blamed for it, but I'm going to have to deal with that when it happens and focus on the present for now.

I definitely understand how you feel. My mom was nearly hysterical when she found out, and has blamed everything from my friends to her own failure as a parent for my atheism (it seemed that the hardest part for her to accept was that this was fully my own responsibility). There were a lot of angry phone calls from her trying to argue with me, which never ended well (and resulted in us simply not talking about religion anymore).

It seems likely to me that your family is going to find out sooner or later. I'd think it would be better to just get it over with, especially now that you seem to be right in the middle of the most painful part.

And hey, you still don't know that she's going to take it in the absolute worst way possible. It doesn't look like she'll take it very well (and I'll wager she's reacting about how you'd expect), but you still don't know that you'll be cut off from the family (which it sounds like you're almost willing to do yourself just to avoid dealing with the situation). I had the same fear, which ultimately was not realized. I can't pretend to know whether your parents will react like mine, but I don't think it unreasonable to expect that their love of their child with override their opinions of your atheism.

I know how this feels, and I wish I could do more to help than just empathizing from across the internet :(

Very sorry to hear of the trouble you are experiencing. I can definitely relate to shocking people accidently and the emotional responses. It is tough when just being yourself hurts people when you are trying your best not to. It isn't your fault, of course you know that. It is crumby being stuck in the middle of all that.

Thank you so much everyone for all of your comments.

atimetorend, I'm really glad to hear that it helped your situation to take things slowly. It gives me confidence that I made the right decision to only reveal one bit of information instead of the whole shebang.

Unfortunately, as I feared, my mom is already pushing. She sent me an email that I have no idea how to respond to. She said that for the past few days she's been doing "research" regarding evolution and creationism (I'm afraid her "research" consists of finding sites like answersingensis). She found some link to a guy's site who is an evolutionary biologist but also a Christian. I don't know what his deal is, but the headline is "Darwinism is obsolete," and he thinks that "Darwinism is a philosophical mess." She wants to know if I agree with him.

She then goes on to say that she doesn't really care what anyone says about how the world came into being, because "we will never really know" and all we have now are a "bunch of educated guesses." Big sigh.

She then says that she feels sorry for Richard Dawkins, such a lost person so obviously filled with hate. She then makes a kind of Pascal's Wager statement, saying that in the end, even if God isn't real, at least her faith has given her peace and happiness, and if God is real, then she'll be with him in heaven, unlike poor Richard Dawkins who will have to stand in front of God and explain why he hates him so much and why he tried to hard to convince people to not believe in him. Then she says, "He is VERY antagonistic toward this God that he doesn’t believe in." The only thing I can think of to say in reply to that is, "Richard Dawkins is just as antagonistic toward God as you are toward him." But I think that will reveal my allegiance.

I just don't know what to do. I really don't want to give more lies. I just want to pretend this all never happened, but obviously she isn't going to let me do that.

I'm also afraid that if I shoot off a quick email, like "Oh yeah, I totally agree with that guy." That she'll get suspicious, since I'm usually very verbose when it comes to expression my opinions. I feel like she's really backed my into a corner.

orDover:

Well, I might be with Leo after reading your latest installment. I think you only have a few options:

1. Lie outright.
2. Lie a little less and talk to your mom about having a "time of doubt" and needing space.
3. Just do it.

It seems like 1 won't work for you at this point - too much has come out. Won't mom be watching you to see if you are going to church, living up to the lie with your actions? This will not be the same as "going back to before." Won't you be force to lie regularly to assure the family? Option 2 could be a workable way to continue the slow revelation and would give you and your mom some time to adjust/prepare. But that depends on if she will really GIVE you the space that you ask for or if she will continue to hammer you about issues.

I'm sorry you've been pushed into a corner, but I guess there are benefits to getting things over with. I have been using the "need some space" with my mom for quite some time now. We kind of have a "don't ask don't tell" thing, although she pushes occasionally. I don't see anything truly wrong about asking for space and avoiding a complete revelation - if your mom can honor it and you can live with it.

If you decide to write a response, you might consider starting with common ground (you've both done research, you both care about truth and love and each other), a thank you, or a respectful acknolwedgment of your mom's message. I don't know about you, but I have found that starting with common ground works wonders in my business communications...maybe it can help with this too.

Hope things will be better than they look from here...

I know I should tell her. I know I should just get it over with. I know. But I feel so strongly that I just can't do it. I can't bring myself to do it. I feel like it's physically and emotionally impossible. I know this seems dramatic...I'm just at such a loss. I want to crawl into a hole and disappear. I've thought a million times of what to say, and I've composed the letter in my head over and over again, but I feel like I'll never have the courage to hit the send button. I don't know how to make myself do this.

I don't think it's very dramatic. That's pretty much how I felt, and I'm not sure if I even could have made the effort myself without my mom asking me questions. In spite of my suggestion that you get it over with, I can't honestly say I would have taken my own advice. The main reason my parents know is because I couldn't bring myself to lie when I was asked point-blank if I was an atheist (even then I almost tried to weasel out of it with an "I'm not sure...", though I solidified my position with the follow-up questions). Had I lied to them then, I don't know that I would have ever told them the truth of my own volition. All that said, I can't describe how much better I've felt since letting them know. Sure, it's been difficult, but I can be myself without constantly worrying that they'll "find out."