deconversion

Even if I have a slight door open to believe in the existence of God, there's no way I can ever believe that Elohim/Yahweh is actually who he is. All of those crazy and bloody rituals, whacky rules, and downright evil acts cannot really originate from God unless he is really a pretty sick being nothing like humans. I forgive my kids for things without requiring them to kill and mutilate helpless animals. It's simple, ask and you will be forgiven. How did that crap ever make any sense to me?

While I was a huge fan of about 10% of the teachings attributed to Jesus (and conveniently ignored the rest), I doubt if I could ever believe that he is God either.

So the answer to my question is I do not believe there's anything that would ever convince me that Judaism or Christianity is reality even though I'm open to believe in "God."

Paul

The only thing that would make me believe is to see it with my own eyes.

I doubt anyone could ever give me sufficient answers to my questions about the god of the bible. I've asked so many about my Jericho problem (god killed people, men women and children, because they were in the way? Why were there no chances? Like, "accept god and live"? Why did god not tell them to talk to them at all?) and I've never even had someone TRY to answer. They all tell me they'll go look it up and get back to me, and no one has.

I would need someone to manage to prove to me that the bible isn't sexist (impossible), or that people were sexist and god condemned it (haven't seen it), I would need homosexuality to be explained in a way that feels true in my heart and to my life experiences (if I did go back, I'd probably go to a gay church), I could NEVER go back to my faith as it was when I believed, and I think I might rather go to hell than lose my fiance and all my friends AGAIN, just because the all mighty all powerful god isn't good enough at communicating his personality (he needs to get a frigging myspace already), so no, pretty much no way in hell I could believe in the christian god again (I'm pagan, so there is A type of god I can believe in, but the nature of that god is dramatically different, in fact, so is the nature of that "belief").

I consider the christian god at this point a dangerous evil and a very childish one at that, seeing him with my own eyes would only enrage me.

Thinking Mom,

I agree. The only way I would believe that God exists is to see with my own eyes. However, I think it should be with lots of other witnesses. I'm amazed that God NEVER seems to appear to a large group. It's always to individuals. Hell, I may be hallucinating so I will add that there needs to be other witnesses.

OT,

I agree. Humanity has evolved to be way more moral, just, loving, kind, etc. than the God described in the Bible. We've in essences evolved beyond the God we created. The God Christianity believes in now is NOTHING like the God described in the Bible. That was one of the big factors of my deconversion.

Here's a good definition of Elohim/Yahweh by Richard Dawkins:

“Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

Paul

I've said all along that all anyone needs to get me to believe is to actually come up with a deity. Not talk about an hypothetical, imaginary deity, but actually have a real one to hand. Something on the order of what you read about all the time in the Bible, in old Greek/Roman/Egyptian/Norse/etc myths. Hairy thunderers, cosmic muffins, whatever. You just gotta actually come to me with an actual deity.

Thinking Mom,

I agree. The only way I would believe that God exists is to see with my own eyes. However, I think it should be with lots of other witnesses.

Plus, James Randi should be present. I'd only believe if Jesus, as he appears in Christian art, appeared miraculously to a large crowd of people with myself present and James Randi there for good measure. As for the problem of evil/eternal damnation, that's a tougher question. Christians do an okay job of rationalized them, I guess. If you first accept the fact that God exists and is loving as a given, that is. If I had good enough proof of God, it's possible that those "God's ways are not our ways" "God's justice is not our justice" arguments would suffice. They certainly used to...

... If you first accept the fact that God exists and is loving as a given, that is. If I had good enough proof of God, it's possible that those "God's ways are not our ways" "God's justice is not our justice" arguments would suffice. They certainly used to...

No, all the apologists and preachers and godbots told us that it sufficed, but it never actually did.  Not for me.  Once I figured that out, that was one factor in my deconversion.  And you know, if some fundie actually managed to produce their deity in full glory, I still don't think it would suffice.  He'd have a lot to answer for!  I think about that question that the fundies try to put out as some kind of poser: "what would you do if you died and found out that our god was real after all?"  I think I'd be chewing him out for being a sorry-ass excuse for a supreme being!

I like having James Randi along for any divine manifestations.  But he's getting on the old side, so we'd need to bring Phil Plait, and PZ, and several other observers along as well.  And videocameras, and a bunch of other scientific equipment too.  I not only want to see it, I want it filmed and weighed and measured and written up and submitted for publication.  I'm not holding my breath.

The blind see, the lame walk and the dead raised.

When John the Baptist sent messengers from his prison cell to Jesus asking if he were the one to come, Jesus replied with these words. "Go tell John what you have witnessed." He also told his disciples that they would do even greater things in his name.

So, it has been 2,000 years. These things certainly aren't happening now, and I haven't heard of them happening in the past. What happened to all that power that was promised? Instead, I see Christians settling for so little. Even the Pentecostal and Charismatic "faith healers" can't match the New Testament miracles, which were for the most part done outdoors, in public, and not in a staged setting.

So yeah, I'd like to see a miracle, a real miracle.

I posted this to the "Steps Out" blog in response to Grace asking this exact question: Here�s honestly what it would take for me to believe again. It wouldn�t be a single event. A miracle. A voice from the sky. A prayer answered. You know what it would take for me to believe that there is a supernatural being who loves me like a Father loves a son? It would take a relationship. And actual relationship. Something I could feel. Something that was a two-way street, not just me saying prayers to the walls. Ask me what one thing my wife did that let me know she loved me. I couldn�t do it. It was several months of building a relationship before i realized I loved her. Several more months before I was certain I wanted to commit my life to her. And it�s been an ongoing thing ever since. If my relationship with God is supposed to be even more intimate than THAT, it�s going to require God giving a little back. Right now, in spiritual terms, I feel like a husband who finds out his wife has been screwing around on him behind his back. How much time would my wife need to spend convincing me that she truly loved me after spending our entire marriage being acting cold toward me, all the while screwing some other guy? It would take a LONG time� assuming I gave her that chance. No one thing is going to make me believe in God. Only God being with me (and dwelling in me as they say) will make me believe in God.

So, it has been 2,000 years. These things certainly aren't happening now, and I haven't heard of them happening in the past. What happened to all that power that was promised? Instead, I see Christians settling for so little. Even the Pentecostal and Charismatic "faith healers" can't match the New Testament miracles, which were for the most part done outdoors, in public, and not in a staged setting.

So yeah, I'd like to see a miracle, a real miracle.

Eve's Apple,

Yes, I pleaded to God for this type of thing many times when I still believed. If he was there after all, he's either incapable of being found, doesn't want to be found or incapable of revealing himself to us.

J.

What would do it for me? It would be to actually see many changed lives - you know, that 'new creation' stuff that for the most part never goes down. That's the biggest reason I left. My own life wasn't very good (as far as being more like Christ) and there are droves and droves of people whose lives are just as crooked, mean and altogether unchanged as the "lost". It's even more egregious because they claim to be such upstanding Christians.

Not that there isn't other intellectual BS that one has to swallow in order to be part of the faithful, but the main focus of Scripture was to make people in to imitators of Christ. For the most part, the imitations are appalling.

Hi everyone, To be honest I couldn't believe again the way I used to because I have found the descriptions and attributes claimed by christians to be contradictory in nature and irreconciable with each other. for example, eternal damnation and loving God... Doesn't make sense. Maybe I could believe something again, but definately not the traditional christianity. Also because I have thought long and hard and struggled and if I found myself in the faith again, I would resent everyone else because whilst it might be true, they wouldn't know and they don't care less, thus turning something I consider real into a farce.

Well said, micthacks!