deconversion

I'm wondering if anyone has any expertise or access to expertise on biblical texts. Specifically, how old is the oldest known copy of the Torah (old testament)?

The reason for the question is that I have a hypothesis I'm working on: the old testament came out of the babylonian captivity.

I say this for a couple of reasons:
1) I can't find any reasonably reliable information which validates the pre-captivity claims of the OT.
2) I can't find any evidence that there existed a torah or tanakh prior to the babylonian captivity.

I know that some groups will say that the original torah that Moses wrote was in the ark of the covenant, but, surprise, both are gone! Why is it that everything that COULD validate the claims of the bible have mysteriously vanished or are explained away? Body of Moses? Explained away. Body of Jesus? Explained away. Copy of the original torah? Gone. Hell, the ark of the covenant? Gone. Evidence of Davidic kingdom? Finally found A (singular, as in one) reference (if I recall an episode from an archeology show on the History channel correctly) to the most popular, strongest king of Israel.

I know, I know, I'm just a cynic. But it's what I do so well!

Has anyone else ever looked into this? No point in reinventing the wheel!

Oldest existing copies of the OT are the Dead Sea Scrolls which date from about 100BC. They contain most (all? I'm not completely sure) of the Torah. Best guess for the writing of it is circa 700BC, but it could certainly have been earlier.

Well, you've re-enforced my hypothesis. Most everything I have read, both religious and non-religious, says that the earliest manuscripts we have date to the 6th or 7th century BCE.

Let's see if anyone else has anything.

Most everything I have read, both religious and non-religious, says that the earliest manuscripts we have date to the 6th or 7th century BCE.

Just checking on terminology. You got that the earliest, physical pieces of parchment in existence only date from the 1st century BC. There are no physical manuscripts from any earlier. Just making sure.

OH! I'll double check that.

I didn't pay attention to the difference. I'll get back with you.

Couple of good links that can provide a starting point for looking some of that stuff up:

Okay, I figured it out.

I saw an article on ynetnews.com (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 � 95,00.html) which states that a couple of scroll fragments were found in 1979 which date to the 7th century BCE.

That not withstanding, I'm still baffled why everything I can find seems to date to c. 600 BCE. Don't the Jews have any history prior to this? I was especially blown away when I found out that there practically isn't any evidence of David or Solomon. So things are starting to look bad for the old testament. No record of Abraham, Joseph, Moses, the exodus, Joshua, the conquest and now David and Solomon!

THAT got me thinking: Was there ever a unified kingdom? And how far back does verifiable jewish history go? Everything seems to stop around 600 BCE.

Just something else to make me go hmmmm.

This is a great book on that subject (Finkelstein, David and Solomon):

There are archeological finds older than 600BC. Tablets, pottery, buildings, carvings. My take was that the general opinion was that the kingdom of Israel was a small, tribal one. The view of it as being rich, with foreign sovereigns coming to marvel at its riches, is pure self-aggrandizement by Hebrew authors. None the less, there is evidence for the existence of Hebrew kings all the way back in 1000BC and a bit earlier.

Just a news article that popped up relative to this.

Thanks, Leo. I'll check it out.

I think the headline on the article is misleading. It shows only that the Hebrews were writing things down as early as the 10th century BCE. There is still no evidence yet that the texts we have now date any earlier than is presently thought.

Ubi Dubium is right about the headline. One good summary putting that find in perspective is here.

Yeppers. It does only show that some form of Hebrew was around back then, and it does indicate that there were some phrases written that somewhat resembled a few OT phrases. That's about all. So the OT could have possibly been written in Hebrew before 600BC, but it this finding does really tell us anything about whether or not it actually was.