deconversion

I started this blog yesterday, but it disappeared in draft form. If you see it, tell it to come home.

My friends came over Saturday night and I really feel sorry for them. They had no idea that I was going to tell them what I told them. Of course they wouldn't, because I hadn't said anything to them. Nonetheless, I understand their shock. I am a person they thought of as a "solid christian" and here I am telling them that I have turned agnostic. Actually, I called myself an apostate which, as you know, is a shocking word for a christian to hear and here is their friend freely admitting to being one.

I laid out, in very general terms, the reasons for my apostasy (the lack of evidence for Joseph, Moses or the exodus) and, predictably, all they could offer were the traditional christian platitudes. I don't really hold it against them, but it definitely points out the lack of critcal thinking skills by christianity at large.

At one point the husband tried to argue that if I at least accepted the historical reality of Jesus, I could use that as a starting point because Jesus spoke of Moses as a historical figure. About half-way through what he was saying, he noticed the look on my face. "You don't think Jesus was real?" he asked. "I don't know", was my reply. I explained that despite what the church teaches, I have found scant evidence that Jesus actually existed and I just haven't done enough research to come to a conclusion. Again, he sat there dumbfounded. Literally silent. He couldn't think of a word to say.

He asked my wife where she was with this and she replied that her faith was solid and that she believed that I just had some questions and that I would come through this a better, stronger christian able to help others who are going through doubts.

Well, I'm not going to she's wrong or she's crazy since I don't know the future. However, from what I have learned in the last few months, there is nothing to go back to. I can't turn my brain off and just believe something for the sake of believing. It's a problem I've had all my life that I just can't seem to get over it.

My friends were still my friends when they left. That speaks volumes for them. I don't know if the husband is going to start doing any of his own research, but I gave him plenty to think about. As you all know, if he does and if he has an open mind, he'll wind up here!

I'm disappointed in my wife, but not suprised. We were just talking and I was telling her that I finally figured out what happened this past summer that "pushed me over the edge" into doubt and ultimately led to my deconversion.

I guess a little background is required here. Most recently I attended a messianic jewish synagouge. It was fun and exciting at first and I began a torah study in my home four years ago. All was well at first, but as time went on I began to realized that I was being taught by my rabbi and by the course material in my torah study that the MJ community's opion was that everything I had learned as a gentile believer was wrong because it was divorced from christianity's jewish roots.

My first flag went up about 2 years ago when I realized that the torah study material always spoke disparengingly of christian teaching or interpretations of certain passages of the bible. I got to the point where I wondered aloud, "If we got EVERYTHING wrong, how did we get Jesus (or Yeshua as he is called in the MJ community to "bring back" his jewishness) right? How is it we were right on that one point and only that one point?"

I almost bought into it, but then this past summer, the publishers of the study material came out and basically said, "Oops. We've changed our minds." about some of the most fundamental teachings they had within the MJ community.

So I was left with: They have told me for 3+ years that everything the church taught was wrong and now they say, "oops"?

I had other issues going on with my beliefs as it was and this was the last straw. The proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

So I decided to start with the basics. Since all of my belief system was based on the bible, it made sense to me to validate the bible because if the bible wasn't valid, none of the other teachings mattered.

If you're on this site, you know where that led!


Now back to my conversation with my wife. The friends that I mentioned in another post are coming over tonight and my suspicions were well founded. My wife is hoping for some type of intervention. I say that because she made a comment that she hoped that the husband who is a good friend (I hope that "is" doesn't become "was", but we'll see) could say some magic phrase to reassure me. That told me that she has not truly listened to all that I have shared with her about the research I've done and the answers I found. She's still hoping for Scott the devout Christain.

That guy is gone. Destroyed by christianity itself and buried by facts. Facts that show that the bible is a collection of stories, but nothing more.

How do I get her to understand that?

Well boys and girls, I've been outted.

Now all my (former, I guess) friends know that Scott is an apostate. I didn't know when this day would come, but yesterday was the day and it's done. Time to move on.

What happened you ask? Well, My wife was involved in a ministry and had to let the ministry leader know that "we" weren't to be attending any more (I haven't attended for a couple of months. She would go sporadically). I say "we" because she refuses to go to church without me (she's trying to use that as a hook to get me to attend). She keeps hanging on to the notion that this is just some "thing" I'm going through and once I get through it I will be a better, stronger believer because of it.

I tried sharing with her some of the things I've learned during my research, but I'm not sure it truly sank in. As I have said before, she's a believer and fundamentally can't understand my need to find true truth. She's quite content to take the preacher's/sunday school teacher's word for it and go on.

I freely admit that I am the problem! I am the one that questions, wonders, reads, double-checks. I am the one who is never satisfied. I am the one who is constantly re-evaluating myself, my motives, my beliefs. It drives ME crazy sometimes, so I'm sure it drives her crazy. But that is WHO I AM. I can't change it. I really don't want to. SOMEBODY has to ask the questions.

Of course, all it took was letting that ministry leader know and we're off! You've heard of telephones and television? Try tel-a-christian and see how fast news travels!

Naturally, they are all praying for me, etc, etc, but there's no going back. Hell, I didn't really believe in prayer as a christian, I certainly don't put any confidence in it now. Additionally, the outpouring of love and understanding has been truly amazing. Oh, wait. Not one person has called, emailed or stopped by. Scratch that last comment.

That was probably mean to say, but it illustrates the problem. Before I left christianity, I could not find ONE person I could honestly talk to. You know what I mean: one person who would honestly and seriously listen to my questions and doubts and sincerely try to help me come to some conclusion about them. I know that they would emphasized the christian answers, but at least they would really LISTEN. Not one.

So, I'm out. I guess I can change my FB profile now!

So I decided to read Josh McDowell's book Evidence That Demands A Verdict.

Is he for real? I've read half way through chapter 2 (34 pages) and I can't believe he is making such absurd claims (I started to say "arguments" but he hasn't made an argument yet!). Is he serious about his claim that the number of copies of the new testament is proof of its authenticity? Please tell me that he's not serious (I know, I know. He is.).

He brags and brags how the bible influenced society, governments, history, etc. Well, of course it has! Well, since the 4th century, believers have been told that it is the WORD OF GOD (thunder, please). When people believe it is the word of god, they tend to let themselves be influenced by it. What's so amazing about that? Furthermore, how does that prove anything about the authenticity of the bible?

Is the rest of the book going to be like this?

Well, I finished the book after all.

I am speechless. At no time did Aling ever really try to validate the bible stories of Joseph, Moses or the exodus. He just took them as fact and moved on. In fact, he went so far as to disallow anything that disputed the bible and went with the bible. I thought about listing my 25 objections, but I think that would be preaching to the choir.

Two things come to mind:
1) This pretty well drives the nail in the coffin for me concerning the bible. I purposely read a book from a believer to see if he would reasonably prove what the bible claims. He didn't even try. In fact, as I have said, he admitted that there is no archeological nor historical data to back up the bible's claims. And this guy has a Phd in Egyptology!

2) This experience shows me the power of belief. I read this same book 25 years ago and accepted every excuse Aling offered. Now I just hang my head in shame that I did so. Did I really just take it all? Yes I did. I refused to listen to REASON! I attributed my doubts to the devil instead of realizing that they were from my BRAIN hollering, "Wake up, stupid! Wake up!"

It's funny, I am a skeptic by nature, but I wasn't here. I accepted the bible without real question. I accepted the lame-ass "proof of the infallibility" of the bible without question. Even though I was skeptical about various claims made by various people, various doctrines taught, etc, I never questioned the entire world-view!

Man, what an eye-opener! The emperor has no clothes. I'm just sorry it took me 30 years to see it.

I'm not sure I'll finish Aling's book Egypt and Bible History.

I read the first 4 chapters and I'm just dumbfounded. All I have read so far is a survey of pre-biblical history and the Joseph story. Thus far, I have 20+ objections to his arguments (I hesitate to call them arguments for they are really just assertions). Aling doesn't even make a genuine effort to prove his case. He simply states it as if it were fact (I guess I was right the other day) and goes about validating it. In every instance where there is a question of biblical accuracy, he manages (he thinks) to explain it away.

I've been keeping a journal of my notes and objections, but I am tired of not being able to read a single page of his book without having to stop to write something down.

Is the rest of the bible this false? Is it really this easy (if the village idiot can do it, anyone can!) to disprove the bible?

I have to share something from the last chapter I read.

I had never realized that there was a contradiction in the bible concerning how long the Israelites were in Egypt. I had always thought 430 years. Aling himself brings up the fact that the bible contradicts itself (although he doesn't call it that. We're just reading it wrong!) by pointing out that based on Galatians 3, the law was given 430 years after the promise was made to Abraham in Genesis 12. Since it was 215 years from Abraham's time to the time Jacob went into Egypt, then the longest the Israelites could have been in Egypt is 215 years to make the 430 years of Galations 3. BUT Exodus 12 says that they were in Egypt 430 years.

Who to believe? Was the law given 430 years after the promise to Abraham or were the Israelites actually in Egypt for 430 years? One way they were in Egypt 215 years, the other, it was 645 years from the giving of the promise until the law.

Does this bother Aling? Not in the least. You see the promise was to Abraham's seed. So, if we count from Abraham's seed (Jacob), we find that we can correct our obvious misunderstanding!

Problem solved. NEXT!

I just sat there thinking, "No he didn't." But, yes he did. If this had been the only discrepancy, I might be willing to give him a pass on this. But after the 20th objection, passes are a thing of the past.

I'm curious about how he adresses Moses, so I'll probably at least read the next couple of chapters.

I'll keep you posted!

I took a break from Darwin's Ghost.

I'm obsessed with fairness, so I thought I would get out a book I had read in college, "Egypt and Bible History". It's about 25 years old, but I thought it would make interesting reading...now.

SHIT! I hadn't gotten past page 35 and I've already found more fudging, explaining, dancing, singing, etc. than I know what to do with!

Now the really funny part about that is that the interesting parts (concerning Abraham and Joseph) didn't enter the discussion until page 21! So in 14 pages, I have come up with 10, shall we call them "objections"? If this keeps up, I'll have a full notebook in no time!

I really didn't know what to expect so I am blown away at:
1) the fact Aling admits these things (in a christian sort of way). I guess he knew he had to say SOMETHING.
2) that it would be so easy to spot.

I'm working on the principle of "you believe this, it is your responsibility to provide the evidence that it is correct". Unfortunately for most christians, the burden of proof is on them, not me.

I'm getting a sneeking feeling that, even in their own writings, I will see that they can't or won't.

Let's see, I started out the year a serious believer in Jesus Christ and end the year a near atheist. Does anyone see a problem here?

Not really. I suppose all of us have gone through this or we wouldn't frequent this site.  But it really is quite something when I think about it.

I knew this would be a year of change for me. I don't know why I knew it, but I did. I was so sure that I told my wife in January that this year I was going to be true to myself and not try to be something I'm not.

It's funny, but this began with me admitting to myself and accepting the fact that I am a pessimist. So I get really pissed when people tell me I have to be happy all the time, look on the bright side, etc, etc. I spent all my adult life trying to do that and it just didn't work. I'm not wired that way.

Well, this morphed into my spiritual life and trying to: A) figure out what I truly believe and B) trying to be true to that belief. And all of that led, among other places, here!

I don't think I've mentioned this before, but the funny thing (to me anyway) is that I wound up on this site via a web search. Thanks Google! Oh, what was I searching? I was searching for sites that could help me honestly prove or disprove the bible. I had decided to critically read the bible and validate the various stories in it with extra-biblical sources. One of the hits was from somebody's post on this site. I clicked it, read some of the testimonials and the rest, as they say, is history!

Oh, how refreshing it was to find that I was not the first or only person to have doubts and questions! I really appreciate(d) that I wasn't and am not treated like an idiot on this site because I believe(d) in god. I appreciate the fact that the regulars on this site have been or are going through the same things I am. All of the doubts, fears, questions, back and forth, belief in god, disbelief in god, being pulled in a thousand directions, dealing with family, friends, etc. I feel like I'm in an AA group! What do we call ourselves FBAs (former believers anonymous)? I like "The d-Cs" personally.

So to all of my formerly believing friends, a very Happy New Year! I look forward to personal growth, peace and maybe a little prosperity for all of us!

I read the introduction...all 20 pages of it! What am I in for if the introduction is 20 pages long?

Two observations:
1) I enjoyed the argument about HIV. Specifically how the mutations of the virus demonstrate evolution at a rapid rate rather than the usual very slow rate. This gives us a chance to study it.  I didn't know there were so many strains and that they are unique to their situation.

2) I was completely fascinated by the arguement our ability to breed dogs is proof of evolution. Huh? The argument is: if species couldn't change at all, we couldn't "create" new breeds. Stop, stop, stop. I've got to think about that one!

More to come...

Well, my book came yesterday.

I'll be reading Darwin's Ghost for the next couple of weeks. I'm one of those who have a running argument with the books I read, so this should be interesting.

I started to buy The Origin of Species, but several reviewers stated that they wished that they had read Darwin's Ghost first so I decided to start with it.

I'm anxious to read it because, as I understand it, Darwin was a christian who, upon initially coming up with his theory, fought it because it didn't square with his theology. It was only after 20 years of research that he concluded that evolution is correct and creationism is not.

I'll post my thoughts and reactions as I read.