deconversion

This article is a little lighter than my usual post. I was thinking last night, what if we were to have a showdown of gods vs. various non-gods, such as fictional or mythical characters.

**** Showdown: God of Bible vs. Star Trek Q ***
A little background on Star Trek Q for those not familiar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_%28Star_Trek%29

The character Q is a mischievous, seemingly omnipotent being. Q's power is limited only in that he cannot overcome others in the Q Continuum. Otherwise, he can do more or less whatever he wants.

Note on God used here.
There are multiple gods listed in the bible. Yahweh, Elohim and El Shaddai are the most common. I decided to go with the name Elohim, instead of the generic title "god".

=== ROUND1 ====
Task:Genesis 1:1-31

Referee holds stop watch

Announcer: In universe #1: god. In universe #2: Star trek Q.
Announcer: on your mark, get set, go ....
Announcer: lets go to universe #1,

Announcer: Here is Elohim dressed in blue sweat pants, and pink leggings
Announcer: I hope he does not plan on creating his people in THAT image!
Announcer: He is cracking his knuckles.
Announcer: What is this, he is getting out blue prints? it appears so.
Announcer: Oh, someone from his pit crew told me, he wants to get the design right.
Announcer: Ok, well lets let him get to work.

Announcer: Lets go over to Universe #2 and see how Star Trek Q is doing.
Announcer: What's this? Ladies and gentlemen he is completely done already.
Announcer: Referee, what was the time on the clock for this?
Referee: Only took an instant. Even faster than I could click the start button.
Announcer: Ref, what is doing now?
Referee: He is down there playing with his world and his people.
Announcer: So folks looks like we have a winner - Q with a time of under 1 second.
Announcer: Well, lets not call this over until the other contestant is done.
Announcer: Let's go back and see how Elohim is doing.
Announcer: So far he created a very plain ball, oh, and a light.
Announcer: Hmmm, not very far looks like.

Announcer: Lets go over to universe #2 and hang out with Q for a while.
Announcer: He usually has some good games going on.
Announcer: We can come back after lunch and see how Elohim is doing.

a little while passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well here we are back at Elohim's Universe
Announcer: He looks very busy. He is naming all this stuff
Announcer: looks like he is busy sorting stuff into categories
Announcer: Other than naming, does not look like he has gotten much done.
Announcer: Let's go back over to Q and maybe play some golf and get some dinner
Announcer: At least he has created food

a little while passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well, we are back at Elohim's universe.
Announcer: Well, let's go ask him what he expects to have done today.
Announcer: Ok, sounds like he will be able to finish the land and seas today.
Announcer: Well lets get some sleep and we can check in with him tomorrow.

a day passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well, we are back at Elohim's universe.
Announcer: Well, let's go ask him what he expects to have done today.
Announcer: Ok, sounds like he will be able to finish the grasses today
Announcer: Well lets get out of here and we can check in with him tomorrow.

a day passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well, we are back at Elohim's universe.
Announcer: Well, let's go ask him what he expects to have done today.
Announcer: Ok, sounds like he will be able to finish the herbs and fruit trees today
Announcer: I guess he knows what he is doing, I would have put the lights on for these trees to grow first, but I guess he is comfortable working in the dark.
Announcer: Well lets get out of here and we can check in with him tomorrow.

a day passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well, we are back at Elohim's universe.
Announcer: Well, let's go ask him what he expects to have done today.
Announcer: Ok, sounds like he will be able to finish the lighting system today
Announcer: Well lets get out of here and we can check in with him tomorrow.

Announcer: He is really moving slow folks.
Announcer: Well lets have him give a call when he is done building so we can come check it out.
Announcer: Well lets get out of here and we can check in with him later...

back to the announcer....
Announcer: Well, we got a call that he is done building.
Announcer: It looks like what Q did about 6 days ago
Announcer: Folks, wait we have a message from the referee.

Referee: Elohim has asked that we not stop the clock now that he is done.
Announcer: What does he mean.
Referee: He says that he wants to rest for an entire day before we stop the clock
Announcer: Your kidding right, we can't stop it now.
Referee: No he is very serious. He want's to rest and do nothing for an entire day.
Announcer: I would have thought he might have wanted to stop the clock when he was done.
Referee: Nope, he want to stop the clock, after he sits around for an entire day.

Announcer: Well lets get out of here and we can check in with him tomorrow.

a day passes ....
back to the announcer....

Announcer: Well, we are back at Elohim's universe.
Announcer: Looks like he is finally done.
Announcer: Referee, what was the official time

Referee: The official time for Elohim: 168 hours, including 24 hours of siting around.
Referee: The official time for Star Trek Q: less than 1 second

Announcer: So there you have it folks
Announcer: The winner, Q
Announcer: Lapping Elohim by 168 hours.

Announcer: Ref, how is Elohim doing with the news that he lost
Referee: He looks pretty angry

Announcer: Yeah, if those folks he built don't thank him alot for all the hard word he did, I bet he will unleash a hell on them.

Referee: uh, excuse me.
Announcer: Yes?
Referee: Elohim never built a hell.
Announcer: Are you sure?
Referee: I am very sure. He showed me the blueprints and even the official documentation he put into Genesis.
Referee: I hear is going to take care of that several thousand years from now.
Referee: He is going to send down someone to create that for him.

Announcer: Who is he going to get to do that job. Nobody is going to want to get blamed for creating hell.
Announcer: Do you know who is planning on sending?
Referee: Word around town is that son his has been acting up.
Referee: I think he is planning on sending his son.
Referee: He has that smooth way of talking.

=====Well all, I hope you enjoyed this amusing tale ====

--Jack

I've been reading Paine's "The Age of Reason" (yes, I read all the time! Usually 3 or 4 books at a time...It's a gift :-)) and I find that I agree with much of what Paine has to say. I just finished the section (3 or 4 chapters worth) where he discusses "other worlds" and what we would call "the possibility of life on other planets".

While I have never believed in little green men, I have been of the opinion that this universe (hell, just the galaxy) is just too big for us to say, "it's all about us! There's no other intelligent life anywhere in the universe, but right here on earth". Sorry, just can't go there.

Speaking of reading: can I get a recommendation for a serious book about inconsistencies/errors/contradictions in the bible? Let me qualify that: I'm looking for something that a layman can understand. If the author starts getting into tenses of greek verbs, they've lost me!

I want real, tangible things. Did Abraham really exist? Did the Jews go to Egypt to escape a famine? Was there a famine? Did Moses really exist? Did he lead the Jews out of Egypt? Is there any proof of any of this? That kind of thing.

OMG! The mere fact I'm asking these questions is proof of how far I've come (or fallen, depending on your point of view).

You know. I hate this. I haven't been able to think about anything but this journey since I began it in ernest a few months ago. I have been off again on again for several years, but as I've said elsewhere, it's only been the last year or so that I've been truly searching, researching and trying to figure things out.

Which brings me to today. Since this is all I think about now, I was thinking this moring and realized that one of the reasons I wasn't happy as a Christian was guilt. I mean for a religion of forgiveness, I sure was guilty of alot!

If I go to hell - my fault. I didn't believe.

If my wife's not happy - my fault. I didn't love her correctly/enough.

If my kids are "disobedient" - my fault. I didn't raise them biblically.

If my neighbors/coworkers/friends don't get saved - my fault. I didn't witness.

If my prayers don't get answered - my fault. I didn't believe or I had "sin in my life" or "I wanted my will and not god's will".

If I have financially problems - my fault. I didn't tithe or give enough.

Come on, add your "I didn't" to the list.

NO WONDER I wasn't happy. Sheesh. I am amazed how much blame I took before I said, "forget this". (Well, I didn't actually say, "forget", but it did start with "F"!)

Now I'm just responsible for me. That is one big ROCK off of my shoulders!

My mom was the first Christian I told, and that was about a month ago.  She was the one who shared Jesus with me when I was 6 and watched him "come into my heart."  She has a strong emotional attachment to Jesus, and her Bible is worn and marked in a thousand places. She has a heart full of love, to the point that she wonders if Jesus will really let people go to hell without giving them a "second chance" after they die. Even though she has bought into some baffling church doctrines (hello predestination), she has not bought into legalism. But she'll tell you how much Jesus loves you every chance she gets! She has always believed I am special and that God has his hand on my life in some special way, and I think that makes it easier for her to think that I will be okay no matter what path I choose.

I had to tell her because she talks about God so much and assumes that I agree with her. I knew that we could't keep having these conversations for the rest of my life...it was too much deception. So I had been "warming her up" for a while.  She knew I wasn't going to church, that I had questions, that I was thinking through things.  So I started the "coming out" phone conversation by asking her what she would think if I ended up as an agnostic. She gave an accepting, though slightly worried, answer, so I decided to go ahead and tell her that's where I am. It was a funny way to test the waters and lead into the conversation, but it worked.

She acted okay, loving, accepting, but I know she was much more shocked than she let on. I was prepared for her reaction and questions because I did a good deal of reading here first. Basically, I was prepared to:

1. Tell her that I still have morals and to explain that they have changed very little since "loss of faith."  This was a real concern for her - will my marriage still remain strong without God? How will I judge right/wrong? The preparation paid off - she specifically liked my goal of doing no harm to others.

2. Tell her that this is not a temporary doubting phase. I felt that it would be unfair to allow her to assume that this was a phase and to watch her comfort herself with a half truth. So I had to tell her at two different times in the conversation that I was serious, that I was not likely to come back to Christianity.

3. Tell her that I didn't want to go into the specific reasons why I left the faith, because that felt like arguing against her faith. She accepted this, and I'm glad I put it out there as a "line in the sand."

4. Explain that my world view really does not include a personal God, so it would help if she doesn't assume that it does in our conversations. I told her I understood that this would be an adjustment for her. And I told her that I don't mind if she wants to talk about her faith. I just wanted her to understand that I see the world without God in it now. I got a lot of silence at that point. I think her mind was blown trying to imagine the world without God.

Since then, things have been okay. I assume she told Dad, but he hasn't mentioned it. The interesting thing about my mom's reaction is that it is probably heavily influenced by her relationship with my brother.  He has become a southern baptist and has a strained relationship with my parents, while I have left Christianity but try to maintain a solid relationship with them. It leaves them "forced" to accept me since I am the child who accepts them. [Maybe there is a use for southern baptists after all! LOL]

At least that's how I think things are going to play out. We'll see.

I wonder when I'll be able to take  the final step, you know, the one where I tell my family that I'm not a Christian. 

Up to now, I've been concentrating on deciphering my real beliefs from that which I was supposed to believe, and it's been a process filled with joy, relief and peace.  The de-conversion site has been an invaluable resource and I extend my deepest thanks to all who have shared their stories here.  For many years I knew I didn't believe in the bible and it's infaliability, and therefore knew that  I was no longer a Christian, but I've spent a considerable amount of effort to conceal that from my immediate family (mom, dad, brother, grandparents).  The only way I've even managed it this long is that I've chosen to live thousands of miles away from all of them and we are  not a family who does alot of talking on the phone or emailing.  I've always been careful not to say anything 'upsetting' on my blogs or facebook, but frankly I'm tired of that.  I'm ready to just be 'me'.  One thing that's been stopping me is that I've already become a cliched 'rebel' in my family--I came out in college as bi-sexual, I have crystals that I consider more than just pretty rocks (yep, that's contrary to my family values!), I live with my lover (but we carefully dance around that fact in conversation).  So to 'come out' as a non-christian who now has an earth and cosmos based spiritual practice will be more fuel for the ridicule fire.

Perhaps I should back up a bit and let you know where I'm coming from:  I was born into a bible based fundamental christian family, my grandparents on my father's side were missionaries their whole lives, my mom's parents were deeply religious and lived in poverty with 7 kids.  My parents met at bible college, married as virgins, and have been together, in Christ, ever since.  We attended a Baptist church known as one of the more fundamental (and therefore correct) churches in town, a point of pride for my parents.  I was required to go to church every sunday morning,  something I didn't mind as a young child as I loved to socialize and make crafts.  My mother tells me that I accepted Jesus into my heart at age 5, on the back porch of our house.  I was all fluff and pretty dresses until about age 11.  Then I noticed an uncomfortable feeling when I was asked questions about my faith.  I still knew all the answers, and spouted them convincingly, but I knew in my gut, something was amiss.  I was baptised about this age, and I felt proud of doing it because everyone around me was so excited and happy for me.  And hey--I loved attention, I was the budding star at the local theater, fashionista, and wanted nothing more than all eyes on ME.  But it was about this time that I put up a wall between my church life and my 'real' life.  I didn't want my 'cool' friends to know the things I said in church, or visa versa.  I didn't want the boys I talked to at the mall to come to church with me, church embarrassed me somehow, even as I thought I still believed in what was said there.

As the years went by, I would orbit my faith elliptically--sometimes I'd feel very close to the Lord, and have a few months of determined bible study and recommitment to living a godly life.  Other times I'd feel as though my faith had lost all hold on me and I was far out in the universe discovering new ideas and experiences.  Then, I'd get pulled back by something or someone and be inspired to dig into Christian things again. But I always maintained that wall between what I really liked and what I was supposed to love.  My final close brush with Christianity came my freshmen year of college.  My mom and I had done a weight loss group called "Weigh Down" which was a Christ based program tying in physical hunger and spiritual hunger.  I liked the program the first time I did it, and I lost some weight because the principles made sense, so when I was in my freshmen year, I decided to go to a weigh down group that was forming near my school, mostly because my parents had been pestering me about what church I was going to attend, and this was a way to go to church without having to listen to a sermon or wake up early on Sunday.  I don't think I made it the whole way through the program that time, because I started to see the disconnect I'd made and finally decided to ride out the way that felt right in my gut.  Admittedly, I did some very stupid things trying to find the 'way'.  But I had to learn to trust myself, something I was taught NOT to do my whole life, so yeah, I took some time to get it right.  I had to learn that I could make mistakes and forgive myself for them and move on, not damn myself for daring to trust my own instincts over what the bible supposedly taught.

So here I am eleven years later, comfortable in my life without Jesus, happy to have found real peace with my existence...but hiding all this from my family because I'm afraid of onslaught of arguements and reasoning battles I will face.  Oh, and did I mention ridicule?  That's one of the favorite tactics because what's more ridiculous than someone who refuses to admit the truth and is constantly fooling herself into believing in her own experience over the words of the  ONE TRUE GOD?  I believe in the cycles of the seasons, the composting nature of life and death, and the fascinating experience of being part of the universe because these are things that I can see, feel, and participate in, but to the static Christian family I am born into, I look like a mindless New Ager, just trying to get out of living right.
FUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!

It's difficult to know what to do next, and for the time being I am pacifying myself by checking this forum every day and communing with you, my friends on the de-conversion journey.