deconversion

I said in a post on one of the forums yesterday that I hesitated before I used the word "atheist" to describe myself. Yet, I had an interesting experience that made me go hmmm.

I am involved in a discussion on another web site with a deist and I realized that I am, quite passionately, arguing the atheist position! It didn't really dawn on me until last night when I was challenging (again) the deist to explain how he reasoned his way to god.

I asserted that he presupposes god exists and then reasons his way back to that predetermined conclusion. I allowed for the possibility that he wasn't aware of the fact that he was doing this, but nonetheless, he was. He even went so far to argue that this god loves his creation and I really jumped his case for that! How can he reason from nature, as deists do, that the creator loves his creation? I need to tell him I think that too much of his former christian theology is still influencing how he processes thoughts about god.

So there you have it. I am an atheist...pardon me, I have to go now, this is an emotional moment.

I still like apatheist though...

I don't know what it is, but I am in a funk and have been all day.

Maybe its lack of sleep cuz I woke up at 2:30 and only dozed until my alarm went off. Maybe its just a bad day, I don't know.

I am ready to snap. I want a fight! You ever had one of those moods where you want to provoke an argument, but know you shouldn't? That's me today.

Whatever it is, my poor wife is walking around on egg shells and my dog is hiding!

Here's to hoping I feel better tomorrow!

Because of the type of person I am, labels are important to me. I think they help society and individuals define them selves and therefore serve a purpose. Now, obviously labels can't be comprehensive and are often misusued.

But I still think they serve a purpose. To that end, since my deconversion, I've been trying to find a "label" for myself. I tried deist, but that didn't fit. I tried athiest, but I wasn't ready for that. This left me with agnostic. This was technically correct, but in our society today, it is understood to mean someone who doesn't want to bother with the whole "god thing". So I didn't like the implication.

So these changes have occurred in the last few months, but this past weekend I had an epiphany! It was one of those crystal clear moments. I am...indifferent.

I don't really care if there is a god or not. If there is, he hasn't tried to talk to me, so why should I concern myself with him? If there isn't a god, then I'm worrying about nothing.

You have no idea how freeing that moment was!

Dictionary.com offers these two (among other) definintions of Indifferent:

1.	without interest or concern; not caring; apathetic: his indifferent attitude toward the suffering of others.

2.	having no bias, prejudice, or preference; impartial; disinterested.

Right now, that sums up my attitude about god pretty well.

I'm so happy that I now have a label!

Recently we were talking about the earthquakes in Haiti at work and one of my co-workers said that she often wondered why there were some people and countries that always seemed to have it worse off than others.  Her conclusion was that it must be "karma."  That these people must have done something in a past life and that is why they were going through these things now. 

Now, none of us would be considered well-off by American standards.  Most of us are barely getting by.  But by Haitian standards, we are all pretty wealthy.  As I am writing this, I am sitting in a warm house, I have food in the refrigerator, running water, lights,  and whatever worries I have are trivial compared to those of the people of Port-au-Prince.  And I would say that is true of my fellow workers.  We are pretty sheltered, insulated.  And so we can afford to dismiss others' sufferings as "karma".

Karma, I told her, is a cruel doctrine.  It requires no real analysis of the situation.  It requires no real action.  In fact, its very logic demands inaction.  For if someone's ill-fortune is a result of something they did in a past life, wouldn't it be interfering with their karma, their destiny, and possibly depriving them of a better life next time around, if we actually tried to do something for them?  Better to let things work out on their own.  I suggested that if she wanted some answers to why some societies and individuals are well-off and others are not, she should start with Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel."  Haiti, I told her, has never had a chance from the very beginning when the slaves overthrew their French rulers.   Slaveowners in the US and Europe correctly saw this as a threat to their own lifestyle and so they refused to help the new republic and it has been that way ever since.  She didn't know anything about that history.  But hey, if you want to talk about karma, it seems to me that there is a very powerful nation that is long, long overdue for some really bad stuff, based upon its history.  And Pat Robertson better pray that he or his loved ones aren't anywhere near the New Madrid fault if/when that ever lets loose again.  (Google it, sometime.  The thing is a ticking time bomb right through the heart of the US, worse than the San Andreas)  Oh, yes, he can talk so smugly about the Haitians' deserving their fate, but no one on this earth is immune to disaster.  No one.

Basically, karma is meaningless.  The thing about this past life business that I don't get, is if we are being endlessly recycled and each life is dedicated to correcting the mistakes of the past one, why is it that we all have to struggle and play guessing games as to what it is we need to learn this time around so that the next will be better?  I don't know anyone who says that they know for a fact that the reason they are the way they are is because of some specific thing that happened in their past life.  Instead, it is "well, it must be because", or "I probably was".  Must be and probably isn't good enough.  Karma doesn't tell us how to solve the problem.  It just absolves us from taking stock. 

Readers of my blog entries will recall that I had a christian friend come to my house for dinner this past Saturday at which time I told him about my deconversion (apostasy, I called it).

Well, I received an email from him yesterday and it seems that he's not going to let me go without trying to persuade me to stay in the faith.

On one level I'm touched that he cares about me enough to try to keep me as a believing brother, but on the other, I have no intention of going back and I really don't feel like doing this with him.

Attached to his email was a 10 page (at least on my printer) article from Christianity Today titled Did the Exodus Never Happen, which attempts to argue that all of the arguments put forth claiming that there was no moses, exodus, etc are wrong. I haven't read the entire article yet so I can't say what it says about each point, but I get the gist and I know where it's going.

So my question is: Do I engage my friend or not?

I started this blog yesterday, but it disappeared in draft form. If you see it, tell it to come home.

My friends came over Saturday night and I really feel sorry for them. They had no idea that I was going to tell them what I told them. Of course they wouldn't, because I hadn't said anything to them. Nonetheless, I understand their shock. I am a person they thought of as a "solid christian" and here I am telling them that I have turned agnostic. Actually, I called myself an apostate which, as you know, is a shocking word for a christian to hear and here is their friend freely admitting to being one.

I laid out, in very general terms, the reasons for my apostasy (the lack of evidence for Joseph, Moses or the exodus) and, predictably, all they could offer were the traditional christian platitudes. I don't really hold it against them, but it definitely points out the lack of critcal thinking skills by christianity at large.

At one point the husband tried to argue that if I at least accepted the historical reality of Jesus, I could use that as a starting point because Jesus spoke of Moses as a historical figure. About half-way through what he was saying, he noticed the look on my face. "You don't think Jesus was real?" he asked. "I don't know", was my reply. I explained that despite what the church teaches, I have found scant evidence that Jesus actually existed and I just haven't done enough research to come to a conclusion. Again, he sat there dumbfounded. Literally silent. He couldn't think of a word to say.

He asked my wife where she was with this and she replied that her faith was solid and that she believed that I just had some questions and that I would come through this a better, stronger christian able to help others who are going through doubts.

Well, I'm not going to she's wrong or she's crazy since I don't know the future. However, from what I have learned in the last few months, there is nothing to go back to. I can't turn my brain off and just believe something for the sake of believing. It's a problem I've had all my life that I just can't seem to get over it.

My friends were still my friends when they left. That speaks volumes for them. I don't know if the husband is going to start doing any of his own research, but I gave him plenty to think about. As you all know, if he does and if he has an open mind, he'll wind up here!

I'm disappointed in my wife, but not suprised. We were just talking and I was telling her that I finally figured out what happened this past summer that "pushed me over the edge" into doubt and ultimately led to my deconversion.

I guess a little background is required here. Most recently I attended a messianic jewish synagouge. It was fun and exciting at first and I began a torah study in my home four years ago. All was well at first, but as time went on I began to realized that I was being taught by my rabbi and by the course material in my torah study that the MJ community's opion was that everything I had learned as a gentile believer was wrong because it was divorced from christianity's jewish roots.

My first flag went up about 2 years ago when I realized that the torah study material always spoke disparengingly of christian teaching or interpretations of certain passages of the bible. I got to the point where I wondered aloud, "If we got EVERYTHING wrong, how did we get Jesus (or Yeshua as he is called in the MJ community to "bring back" his jewishness) right? How is it we were right on that one point and only that one point?"

I almost bought into it, but then this past summer, the publishers of the study material came out and basically said, "Oops. We've changed our minds." about some of the most fundamental teachings they had within the MJ community.

So I was left with: They have told me for 3+ years that everything the church taught was wrong and now they say, "oops"?

I had other issues going on with my beliefs as it was and this was the last straw. The proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

So I decided to start with the basics. Since all of my belief system was based on the bible, it made sense to me to validate the bible because if the bible wasn't valid, none of the other teachings mattered.

If you're on this site, you know where that led!


Now back to my conversation with my wife. The friends that I mentioned in another post are coming over tonight and my suspicions were well founded. My wife is hoping for some type of intervention. I say that because she made a comment that she hoped that the husband who is a good friend (I hope that "is" doesn't become "was", but we'll see) could say some magic phrase to reassure me. That told me that she has not truly listened to all that I have shared with her about the research I've done and the answers I found. She's still hoping for Scott the devout Christain.

That guy is gone. Destroyed by christianity itself and buried by facts. Facts that show that the bible is a collection of stories, but nothing more.

How do I get her to understand that?

Well boys and girls, I've been outted.

Now all my (former, I guess) friends know that Scott is an apostate. I didn't know when this day would come, but yesterday was the day and it's done. Time to move on.

What happened you ask? Well, My wife was involved in a ministry and had to let the ministry leader know that "we" weren't to be attending any more (I haven't attended for a couple of months. She would go sporadically). I say "we" because she refuses to go to church without me (she's trying to use that as a hook to get me to attend). She keeps hanging on to the notion that this is just some "thing" I'm going through and once I get through it I will be a better, stronger believer because of it.

I tried sharing with her some of the things I've learned during my research, but I'm not sure it truly sank in. As I have said before, she's a believer and fundamentally can't understand my need to find true truth. She's quite content to take the preacher's/sunday school teacher's word for it and go on.

I freely admit that I am the problem! I am the one that questions, wonders, reads, double-checks. I am the one who is never satisfied. I am the one who is constantly re-evaluating myself, my motives, my beliefs. It drives ME crazy sometimes, so I'm sure it drives her crazy. But that is WHO I AM. I can't change it. I really don't want to. SOMEBODY has to ask the questions.

Of course, all it took was letting that ministry leader know and we're off! You've heard of telephones and television? Try tel-a-christian and see how fast news travels!

Naturally, they are all praying for me, etc, etc, but there's no going back. Hell, I didn't really believe in prayer as a christian, I certainly don't put any confidence in it now. Additionally, the outpouring of love and understanding has been truly amazing. Oh, wait. Not one person has called, emailed or stopped by. Scratch that last comment.

That was probably mean to say, but it illustrates the problem. Before I left christianity, I could not find ONE person I could honestly talk to. You know what I mean: one person who would honestly and seriously listen to my questions and doubts and sincerely try to help me come to some conclusion about them. I know that they would emphasized the christian answers, but at least they would really LISTEN. Not one.

So, I'm out. I guess I can change my FB profile now!

So I decided to read Josh McDowell's book Evidence That Demands A Verdict.

Is he for real? I've read half way through chapter 2 (34 pages) and I can't believe he is making such absurd claims (I started to say "arguments" but he hasn't made an argument yet!). Is he serious about his claim that the number of copies of the new testament is proof of its authenticity? Please tell me that he's not serious (I know, I know. He is.).

He brags and brags how the bible influenced society, governments, history, etc. Well, of course it has! Well, since the 4th century, believers have been told that it is the WORD OF GOD (thunder, please). When people believe it is the word of god, they tend to let themselves be influenced by it. What's so amazing about that? Furthermore, how does that prove anything about the authenticity of the bible?

Is the rest of the book going to be like this?

Well, I finished the book after all.

I am speechless. At no time did Aling ever really try to validate the bible stories of Joseph, Moses or the exodus. He just took them as fact and moved on. In fact, he went so far as to disallow anything that disputed the bible and went with the bible. I thought about listing my 25 objections, but I think that would be preaching to the choir.

Two things come to mind:
1) This pretty well drives the nail in the coffin for me concerning the bible. I purposely read a book from a believer to see if he would reasonably prove what the bible claims. He didn't even try. In fact, as I have said, he admitted that there is no archeological nor historical data to back up the bible's claims. And this guy has a Phd in Egyptology!

2) This experience shows me the power of belief. I read this same book 25 years ago and accepted every excuse Aling offered. Now I just hang my head in shame that I did so. Did I really just take it all? Yes I did. I refused to listen to REASON! I attributed my doubts to the devil instead of realizing that they were from my BRAIN hollering, "Wake up, stupid! Wake up!"

It's funny, I am a skeptic by nature, but I wasn't here. I accepted the bible without real question. I accepted the lame-ass "proof of the infallibility" of the bible without question. Even though I was skeptical about various claims made by various people, various doctrines taught, etc, I never questioned the entire world-view!

Man, what an eye-opener! The emperor has no clothes. I'm just sorry it took me 30 years to see it.